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1988 cabriolet CIS injector question
10-26-2011, 03:20 PM
Post: #1
1988 cabriolet CIS injector question
I removed injectors, need cleaning, fuel distributor sticky, blah blah blah,...
apparently they are the air shrouded type.
Here is a link that shows diagram of exactly what injectors I have:
http://www.partsplaceinc.com/catalog/vw-...ts48.shtml
My injectors are type 3 in the picture. If you look at the tip of the injector, there is an extra brass peice pressed on which holds the smaller of the two rubber o-rings. Well, one came off when removing the injector and is now residing in the bottom of the intake manifold. I'm hoping it will either stay there, or not cause damage if it get's sucked into the engine as it is only thin brass and I have no desire to remove the intake manifold. Also, two others came off but stayed in the lower insulator so came out in the end. The 4th one I removed from the injector (maybe ruined it) because I thought these parts would be included in seal kit.
I'm wondering if I can just use kit for injector type 1 in the picture and just not be "air shrouded" any longer? Apparently, there is some sort of vent passage machined into the head. Note the hole in part B of type 2 in picture, and not so visable is same hole in brass part B of type 3 (mine) and there is no such holes in part B of type 1 in picture. I'm hoping using the older seats and seals will just be like older type. I'm sure the air shrouding was to prevent hot start issues due to vapor lock. I just want to get this thing running quickly/cheaply for now. I still have yet to deal with cleaning the fuel distributor and if that doesn't work out, it will get a whole different engine and fuel system eventually.

Hope the link wasn't inappropriate! Can we add pictures here??
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10-26-2011, 09:55 PM (This post was last modified: 10-26-2011 09:57 PM by Rupe.)
Post: #2
RE: 1988 cabriolet CIS injector question
The link you provided is fine and probably works better for most of our viewers than anything else.

That said, I presume the brass part you speak of is "part B" in the picture and I would spend the effort needed to fish that out of there because even though it's rather soft it may hang up somewhere that will cause you a problem. For instance, a bit breaks off and gets caught behind a piston ring and does a job on the cylinder wall. (that is probably the worst case) There are other more likely (and less damaging) issues where a piece may get caught in the EGR passage, hang up near an exhaust valve, and possibly do damage to the valve guide, which may also be brass. (they were at one point) What happens if it puts a serious ding in the top of a piston?

As for what interchanges, you may be better off posing that question in a VW buff's forum. It's been over 30 years since I worked on VWs regularly and that was mostly air cooled back then. I thought CIS went the way of the dinosaurs when they canceled the Scirocco line in the 80's.Cool

Still in all, I'd be curious as to how you make out. I might learn something and lord knows there are others who may have the same questions.
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10-27-2011, 12:51 AM
Post: #3
RE: 1988 cabriolet CIS injector question
Hey Rupe... we meet again for the first time since the last time for the last time until the next time...
Actually the brass part is NOT "part B"... LOL, that would be HUGE... If you look closely at the picture of the 1st 3 injectors, you will see they are all basically the same injector but the 3rd one, which for some strange reason is shown with big O-ring installed on it, has a little extra peice at the bottom. It's like a tiny little cup with a hole in the bottom that slides on the tip of the injector and the "rim of the cup" is a thin double rim that holds the small o-ring. It is all very thin brass. Removing the one that stayed attached involved crushing it a bit. As far as it getting sucked out of the intake... I think a good comparative item would be the cap on my clicker type pen. A little bigger, but that thin / light-weight. Being in the VW section, I was hoping a VW guru might be lurking here. I probably need to go to the VWvortex... I haven't been there for so long I've forgotten my name and password! Years ago, I used to live on rec.auto.vw.watercooled but that place is dead now. Anyway, it looks to me like I can convert to non-shrouded...

My camera is useless for close-ups (doesn't focus up close). If I can get my wife's camera for a try, maybe I can attach a pic. Do pics come up on here?
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10-27-2011, 10:37 AM (This post was last modified: 10-27-2011 10:38 AM by Rupe.)
Post: #4
RE: 1988 cabriolet CIS injector question
Hard to post a good pic here because file size is limited to something like 50 or 100 kb. If you have a shot with any detail it would be best to post in on webshare or similar then provide the link to that site. If it's within your means you could also use a photo-shop program to crop / reduce the file size. Some have a feature that atomatically reduce the file to under 100 kb for avitars / e-mail (yes, there are people still on dial-up) but you may not get the quality needed, which is why I mentioned the other method.

Back to the question at hand... I'd still be looking to extract that brass cap. I used to do production engine rebuilding in a unit shop and you would be amazed at what people let fall inside thinking it would just pass through. Even small brass carb parts can do a number on a piston or become embeded in the soft aluminum creating a hot spot.
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10-27-2011, 01:04 PM
Post: #5
RE: 1988 cabriolet CIS injector question
I was thinking... I might try shop vac. I can see it if I go straight down the injector hole with my borescope with 90 degree mirror tip. It's right there with no way to accesses it. Removing the intake is a real pain... no good access with engine in vehicle or without removing head with manifolds attached. Not to say it can't be done, but if a head starts to round out (5mm allen if I recall) it becomes a nightmare. I had tried blocking all the vacuum ports and other 3 injector holes and blasted compressed air through it but it didn't move. Of course, that's not a lot of air volume. I think next I'll try the shop vac directly on the injector opening. If that doesn't work, I'll try making a custom attachment out of a hose or something that might get closer to the target critter. It would be a bummer to get injection working right only to develope a bigger problem later should that peice of brass deside to take an unscheduled trip... and indeed I should be keeping in mind that it's aluminum head!

I located the older type injector seals and seats... 4 of each for a whopping total of 10.96 so no big deal if they don't work! Next will be either removing the plunger from the fuel distributor (scary thing to mess with) or I might try to pipe up my "sure shot" (link for reference http://www.dultmeier.com/products/0.839.4895/8779 ) directly to distributor. Then I can air charge it up to full fuel pressure and run some laquer thinner through it and see if that cleans things out! The "sure shot" is really pretty neat. I got it free in a used car a long time ago. I put prep-sol in it and put 125psi air in it (rated for 200psi). That was at least 4 years ago. To this day if I need a bit of solvent I just grab it a pull the trigger. I've never added air to is since. (haven't checked it either since none of my tire guages go that high!) It will make a good homemade fuel injector cleaner if I can find fitting to fit whatever thread the tip uses on it. Will update here if I do it. Also, if I can remember to snag the wife's camera... I have photobucket account for pics... if I can find THAT password LOL.
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10-27-2011, 08:43 PM
Post: #6
RE: 1988 cabriolet CIS injector question
Any chance you can adapt a small diameter tube to the end of your shop vac and use it like a mini vacuum cleaner to grab the piece? Was thinking either vac hose or brake line and some duct tape.

On that sure shot, maybe the easy way to adapt that for cleaning the injectors is to use fuel hose with clamps and just do a "force fit" so you can flow some solvent through it. Not like you need a lot of pressure to see if the injector is clear.
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10-28-2011, 07:45 AM
Post: #7
RE: 1988 cabriolet CIS injector question
Unfortunately, the depth down the small hole before making a sharp turn into the intake prohibits anything making that turn. That's why I'm shooting for high volume vacuuming. If I can just get it to slide forward until is sits directly below the injector hole, I could do a "bubble gum on a stick" method. At first, it was directly below the opening. But a magnet didn't grab it (discovered it is brass). Then, my 3 prong retrieval tool didn't grab it and apparently knocked it over into the intake manifold. I might try lifting the rear of the car as high as possible and hammer or vibrate the intake and see if it will travel forward! I've decided I need to get it out one way or another before running the engine. Even if it means it sits until spring (it snowed here last night).

The Sure Shot... actually, the cis injectors need about 50 psi to open. The other thing is the current tip on it flows very little volume. I'll need to remove the tip and see what that leaves me with to work with. I've got some chemtool (another free item from a used car), some laquer thinner,... any thoughts on what's best to use to clean with? I could probably pic up some techron or something... the sort of thing I personally NEVER poor in a gas tank because in my opinion, it only serves to clean the tank, lines, and maybe even some of the finer stuff out of the filter, and into the injectors it all goes. To me, that's kind of like worrying that your septic's leech field pipes may be clogging up so you put something in the septic tank to help break up all the sludge in the tank and send it into the leech field! LOL! Unfortunately, I'm sort of doing the same thing with trying to clean out my fuel distributor. But I don't think the cis injectors have any screens in them. They are in the distributor. BTW, I did drain the gas tank and add fresh high octane gas. I've run a lot of gas through the system, out the injectors into a can (close to 10 gallons). Started out with just poor streams of gas coming out injectors. After a while, and after smacking the injectors a bit, they eventuall began to "sing", spraying patterns that don't exactly look great from what I could see of them being inside clear plastic hose. But the fuel plunger is still very slow to return. When I lower the air plate, it can take a real long time for the plunger to drop out and injectors stop spraying. NO good like that!
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10-28-2011, 10:54 AM
Post: #8
RE: 1988 cabriolet CIS injector question
Yeah, gum and varnish are likely your issue but seeing at that system is near 25 years old you probably have some micorscopic pits in the bore holes, which will wear the seals. About the only thing you can do to cure everything is a full disassembly. The "paint thinner" you are using is limited. Maybe take a hint from one of the stronger carb cleaners like Cyclo (in the red / white can) and read the lable to see what the major ingredient is then see if you can purchase a gallon somewhere. The other thing is that the sure shot has limited flow (as you stated) so maybe time to rig up an old fuel pump in a home brew test stand.

BTW, all of the commercially available fuel additives are aimed at gum and varnish, with the specific intent NOT to damage the clear coating on the inside of the fuel tank or the fuel lines. Your car may be old enough to have an issue where the ethanol in today's fuel is starting to eat away at things and that's what is causing your clogged injectors. Nissan had tech bulletins out on that problem in the mid 80's when ethanol was first being used and mentioned that anything over 10% (I feel that's just covering their ass for warranty) was an issue. Today it's not uncommon to see 15% blend and that will vary from one tank to the next. Acetone will likely work well to clean the parts and injectors but it's rather harsh on any coatings and rubber items so don't use it on complete assemblies.
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10-29-2011, 08:39 AM
Post: #9
RE: 1988 cabriolet CIS injector question
I piped up the sure shot. With tip removed, I discoverd it actually can deliver plenty of volume. The limit would be as air pressure quickly drops off, air flowing into it would be restricted by the valve. But before getting that far, because of the banjo fitting (I've always hated those and all the other 14 million different piping fitting) it really proved impossible to get it piped up very well. I had it rigged and holding briefly, just long enough to get a shot of B-12 chemtool through it. Really not a lot at all before it started leaking like crazy. I just had no good way to attach anything to a banjo fitting. If ever I have a chance to rob those fitting from a junkyard unit...! Anyway, I piped the fuel line back up and started flowing gas through again and discovered it was working nearly perfectly now. I think all the fresh good high detergent premiun mobil gas I had flow through it the other day then had time to soak at it for a while. Now, the plunger is only slightly sticky when air plate is lifted all the way. I know it will never see that height when running. No way does a stock 1.8 max out this fuel system. CIS always had capacity way beyond even most modifications. So all was looking good until I tried my new old-style injector seats. The old style seats (back to pic at http://www.partsplaceinc.com/catalog/vw-...ts48.shtml ) type 1 part B are bigger around at the treaded part. So, now I'm stuck at definitely needing to retrieve that little brass o-ring holder out of the intake manifold. I'm about to go out and see how high I can jack the rear of the car up! The shopvac attempt did nothing to move it. Will let you know how it goes. Here's a pic I found that might show ok here showing the extra tip they press onto these that holds the bottom o-ring.


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10-31-2011, 10:12 PM
Post: #10
RE: 1988 cabriolet CIS injector question
Yes, good photo and shows enough detail so I can get the mental image.

BTW, sorry for the delay. We had that freak snow storm here in CT on Saturday and I just got the cable back 15 minutes ago. Still running on generator and probably will be for a few days.... and gasoline is an expensive way to power a house compared to my typical electric bill!
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